Forest of the unsettling perpetual half-life on a computer

[tardis_stowaway]

Completely unrelated to the rest of the post:  I saw a gray fox on my walk this evening!  So cool!  And now back to your regularly scheduled fannish rambles.

I just rewatched Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.  I was somewhat hoping I'd like these episodes better the second time around, but nope.  It's still a collage of reused ideas that worked fairly well in Moffat's other episodes but were just tiresome here (repetition of a line, a threat with covered/messed up faces, strong focus on an original character, "everybody lives," the 51st century, etc.)  I still really dislike the way he wrote Donna.  The treatment of women is still problematic.  Most of all, I still found River Song annoying as all get out. 

This time, I came up with a new item to add to the list of reasons (both rational and irrational) why I dislike River Song.   She is so obsessed with the Doctor in her memories and how impressive he is that she largely fails to see the awesomeness of the Doctor in front of her.  The Doctor is busy figuring out what's wrong and desperately trying to keep everyone alive, and she gets worked up that he doesn't recognize her and he's not opening the TARDIS with a click of his fingers.  Seriously, who cares?  She says that she's seen armies turn and run away from the future Doctor...but they aren't facing an army, so she's making stupid assumptions that he couldn't do that now.  (Remember Nine's speech where he announced that he was coming to get Rose in BW/PotW?  Remember how the Daleks backed up when he got out of the TARDIS and started yelling at them?  Get a sense of perspective, Song.)

I'm against character bashing.  I won't say that River Song deserves to be ripped apart by a pack of rabid hyenas, because she doesn't.  (If a pack of hyenas got into her closet and ripped apart her favorite shoes, however, that would be pretty funny.)   She has a few moments of being  likable, funny, clever, and generally the sort of person you can vaguely imagine the Doctor voluntarily spending time with.  Part of my dislike of her is rooted the way the future she implies interferes with the Doctor/Rose ship, which is a pretty biased reason for disliking her.  Still, I don't think either the writing or the acting of this character makes her really believable as the incredible person with a very special relationship with the Doctor that she seems to think she is.  I really, really hope that Moffat doesn't try to bring her back.

Positive thinking time!  Here are things I really like about SitL/FotD:
-the look of the library.  It's a really pretty episode.
-Donna kicking down the door
-Anita!  Why can't the Doctor have all sorts of timey-wimey connections with her?  "Keeping it together, I'm only crying. I'm about to die, it's not an overreaction." 
-the "Is 'all right' some sort of secret Time Lord code for not all right at all?  'Cause I'm all right too" conversation.  That's the Donna Noble we know and love.  (Also, she says she's using Time Lord code.  Very slight foreshadowing for DoctorDonna!) 

Comments

[wendymr.livejournal.com]

I hear you on just about every point there. She annoyed me like crazy too, and I hated the treatment of Donna in that episode.

I really, really hope that Moffat doesn't try to bring her back.

I think you're doomed to disappointment there :(

[tardis-stowaway.livejournal.com]

I think you're doomed to disappointment there :(

To quote Ms. Song, SPOILERS! ;)

I'm trying to avoid almost all information and even informed speculation about the new series, partly because I like being surprised and partly because I want to live in hope about things like this for as long as possible.

[dameruth.livejournal.com]

I dunno -- overall, I liked these two episodes; I seem to be the odd one out on the f-list in that, and in liking Moffat's work in general, but there it is.

Personally, I also like the idea of River Song; I mean, hardcore Doc/Rose shipper that I am, the solid truth is that, outside of ficcy AUs, even if Ten and Rose were to go off into the sunset with each other, she's human and he's not, and eventually he'd be alone again. And to think he never found anyone else to love again, that he spent his entire remaining centuries bereaved and alone (at least in *that* way) would really, *really* suck. So, I'm cool with River in that sense.

What bugged me about her was the "trying too hard" aspect of the story, trying to put all that backstory and emotional weight into a character we've just met, and kind of failing. Also, DT and AK, while both fine actors, just didn't have the screen chemistry that would make me believe in their relationship (now, if River had been played by, say, Sarah Parish, dude, the chemistry would have melted the TV screen and I would have bought it all hook, line and sinker).

Yeah, the Moff's writing of Donna (except at the end in the "all right" conversation) wasn't the greatest at times . . . but I honestly blame a lot of his weaknesses in writing current companions on the oft-stated fact that RTD would never really give him much to work with in terms of background or editing.

From what *both* of them have said, RTD *tried* to keep Moffat in the dark because he didn't want to interfere with genius, that kind of thing. Personally, if I was writing an installment for a series and was left that much to my own devices, *I* would probably do something similar, sidelining as many regulars as possible (to avoid writing them "wrong," screwing up continuity, etc.), putting in more one-shot characters of my own devising to take up the slack, etc.

Now, whether or not I'm being too charitable, we'll find out when we get to see him actually in *charge* of the show, working with continuing characters of his own creation, his own continuity and story/character arcs, etc.

Oh, well, tl;dr. :)

[tardis-stowaway.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, it's not tl;dr. The original entry was rather lengthy, so an extended response is reasonable. You're not alone in your enjoyment of the eps, and I'm glad for your sake that liked them.

I do like the idea that the Doctor finds someone to love again. I just didn't think the episodes made me believe that someone could be River Song. I disliked how her knowledge of his name seemed to privilege her above all other companions. Plus, I would have liked it if she hadn't recognized this incarnation of the Doctor, because I do suspect Ten is too fully built around Rose to romantically love anyone else (except maybe Jack) until he regenerates, which we know is soon.

What bugged me about her was the "trying too hard" aspect of the story, trying to put all that backstory and emotional weight into a character we've just met, and kind of failing. Also, DT and AK, while both fine actors, just didn't have the screen chemistry that would make me believe in their relationship

Yes! I could have bought a character with extensive connections to the Doctor's future, but this was too much, too fast. DT has extensive chemistry with just about everybody that he's on screen with, so the lack of chemistry with River was especially jarring.

Was RTD keeping Moffat way more in the dark than the other series writers, who all manage to do a much better job with companions and continuity? If he was, it wouldn't decrease my ire, but it would transfer some of it to RTD. That's just a dumb way to operate on a TV series that normally maintains strong character arcs.

I really liked the Moffster's episodes before this (The Doctor Dances remains my favorite DW ep ever), but SitL/FoD just emphasized all the aspects of his writing that I dislike and didn't succeed as well in the ways I do enjoy. Still, I am wiling to watch his season with an open mind. I want to like what he does with my show!

Now that's tl;dr. :) (Edited for typo)

[dameruth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the knowing the Doctor's name deal was annoying with River -- but I like to think it's something more interesting than an, "O hai, we're married in the future," thing. The way River apologizes to him, and the way he looks like his heart has been ripped out and handed to him implies to me that there's something about his name that's tied up in Gallifrey or the War, and River is revealing to him that he'll have to deal with something terribly painful in the future (with her) in order for her to have ever heard/learned his name at all (some kind of play on the "True Names" trope, since the Carrionites proved that names have power in the Whoniverse). Now that . . . that would be *interesting,* I think, and a more real/logical reason for River to know his name than becuze she's that speshul.

RE: RTD keeping the Moff away from info -- I don't have references at hand, but I've seen it mentioned in interviews with both men. RTD has repeatedly said that he doesn't want to mess with "genius," and the Moff has, in turn, repeatedly complained that "Russel never tells me anything!" One instance in particular I remember was the Moffat commentary on TGITF that he did with Noel Clarke (listened to it online ages ago, have no idea where to find it now). In the intro sequence of TGITF, when Rose is acting perfectly happy to have Mickey around, it's a bit of a continuity jump from SR, where she wasn't at all pleased to have Mickey joining the crew.

Moffat commented on that, saying that once he saw the episodes all together, he realized that he'd accidentally created a fairly big continuity glitch -- but all he knew at the time was that Mickey had just started traveling witih Rose and the Doctor, nothing more, and had just written accordingly. (He and Noel Clarke then went on to make some giggly jokes about just what Mickey and Rose might have been doing between episodes to improve her mood that much . . .). But Moffat seemed genuinely annoyed that he hadn't had the information he needed to make a smooth transition with the characters; IIRC, that was the first time I heard the "Russel never tells me anything!" comment . . .

[tardis-stowaway.livejournal.com]

I like your explanation of why River knew the Doctor's name MUCH better than the marriage explanation. To the extent that I accept River as canon (not much), this is now my personal canon to go with her.

I'd heard about Moffat not knowing the circumstances under which Mickey ended up in the TARDIS, but I hadn't realized an RTD failure to communicate was an issue on his other episodes. I believe it though. Oh, RTD, you mad welshman.

[mysticalchild_isis]

It's still a collage of reused ideas that worked fairly well in Moffat's other episodes but were just tiresome here

And that right there is a big reason why I did not like these episodes at all. Moff just seems to keep repeating the same themes and tropes over and over again... but he gets less and less effective.

I also really dislike River because we're forced to think she's a speshul snowflake... without her ever earning said distinction. There have been plenty of female one-offs who have come off fantastic (even in several Moff episodes- like Nancy) without the writing having to browbeat the viewers into it.

[tardis-stowaway.livejournal.com]

I also really dislike River because we're forced to think she's a speshul snowflake... without her ever earning said distinction.

Yep! River's specialness is too much tell, almost no show. Also, we get it exclusively from her word, leading us to wonder if she really is as important to the Doctor as she thinks she is.

There have been plenty of female one-offs who have come off fantastic (even in several Moff episodes- like Nancy) without the writing having to browbeat the viewers into it.

Exactly! Nancy and Sally Sparrow were both terrific. I even rather liked Reinette, though I do enjoy shouting "French trollop!" at the screen during GitF, just for the heck of it. Mrs. Moore in Age of Steel/Rise of the Cybermen is another great example. Impossible Planet/Satan Pit featured a whole team of people who all managed to have a personality that we got to know in a natural-feeling manner. Jabe had only a few minutes of screen time and massive amounts of make up, but she still managed to have more chemistry with the Doctor and more likability than River.

[shield-wolf.livejournal.com]

(Remember Nine's speech where he announced that he was coming to get Rose in BW/PotW? Remember how the Daleks backed up when he got out of the TARDIS and started yelling at them? Get a sense of perspective, Song.)

For that matter, ask Harriet Jones and the Family of Blood if they don't consider Ten himself plenty dangerous -- which is what appears to be a major turn-on for River Song in her relationship with the future Doctor.

(And, reaching even farther back, I'll bet she would really have been impressed by Seven had she known him!)